An interview transcript
Kate
I am so excited to have Portia Louder on. How are you Portia?
Portia
I’m great.
Kate
I’m really glad you’re on with us because I want to hear from you what happened, what your story is, and what you learned. I I think the most important part of your story is what you learned about yourself, and how this experience affected you. There’s a light about you, I told you this in a message because every time I see a photo of you it almost makes me want to cry because I see this light. You’re just so full of light. And I have to say that to you because I don’t see that in people all the time, so it’s a compliment. It’s a huge compliment, and that’s all you Portia. Tell us a little bit about your story. What happened to you?
Portia
Okay. Well, I had a photography business for years and when the real estate market got hot in 2004, 2005, I started investing in real estate. It wasn’t long after I started investing that the FBI came in and started investigating. At first I thought, well I’m doing what everybody else is doing. I went to attorneys and asked questions. it was definitely gray, and to be perfectly honest I remember the first time somebody described one of these types of deals to me I thought: “Why would I ever do something like that?” But as I got further into investing, I started buying and flipping and there was a huge demand for it. So I was an investor in the middle of a lot of these deals, and the investigation continued. Which by the way is a nightmare.
Kate
Sure. Oh, I can only imagine.
Portia
Yeah, it’s no fun. For a long period of time I thought there were people doing a lot worse. I think they first started coming around about 2004 and I was indicted in 2010 for real estate fraud. Then in 2014 I was scheduled to go to trial.
Kate
Wow. That’s a long span
Portia
It was a long span. Yeah, it was. I had not intended to plead guilty at that point. Looking back there’s a million things I would do differently. One of the things I would do differently would be to focus on myself, and just own my part. I wouldn’t worry about what banks did, but that took me years to learn. I learned in prison that empowerment comes when you take responsibility for the choices you made, not by focusing on what everyone else is doing. But at that point in time I thought: “These dirty politicians and banks are a lot more corrupt than I am. I fought so hard that I ended up breaking down.
I can only imagine that one would have a breaking point. Yeah, I ended up pleading guilty. Which was the best thing to do, but the way it happened wasn’t great. I was held in custody for a few months and went through some pretty awful experiences, the day I plead guilty they had threatened to do some things that took it to a whole new level, and I asked my attorney if I pleaded guilty would they just let me out of custody? He said yes, so I pleaded guilty and got out of custody. Then I had about six months until I was going to be sentenced. My attorneys thought I would probably get a year. I had a zero to seven year plea.
It just seemed completely impossible. I thought: “How am I going to leave my family? I have kids, and we’re dependent on me financially.” There were just so many factors, and it seemed impossible. Not to mention that it’s kind of an identity crisis to go to prison. The day I was sentenced was a surreal experience for me. The news was there, and when I walked up the courthouse steps they asked me if I was guilty. I said: “Yes, I did it.” They asked if there was a chance that the judge was going to take me into custody that day, and I said, “I don’t think so, I don’t pose a threat, and I’m not a flight risk. I think I’ll get some time to self surrender.” Then I got in the courtroom, and I could feel it. I knew it wasn’t going to be good. I don’t know how to explain a courtroom other than It’s an extremely sterile environment.
Kate
Yes. Okay. Well, everybody’s deciding your fate so yeah,
Portia
Yeah, It’s not good. My family was there, and I looked back at them and thought: “what have I done!” It was just so overwhelming to me, the feeling of regret and sadness. I knew the judge was going to give me the maximum amount of time. Up to that point that didn’t seem realistic, but I knew right then that’s what was going to happen. I could feel it.
Kate
So what did he give you?
Portia
He gave me the maximum amount of time. He gave me seven years.
Kate
Wow. Wow! So were you in shock? I’m sure you were in shock. That’s a dumb question. I know you were in shock. Did you walk away and think what’s your next move? You know what I mean? Right. Yeah.
Portia
No, I didn’t. I think at that point my heart just broke. I looked at my family and it seemed surreal to me. I listened to the prosecutor, and then I listened to my attorney, and thought, “I wonder why they’re even having this conversation? The direction they’re going to go is already set.”
Kate
Wow. So you get into this situation where you’re in shock, and I’m sure the first couple of nights were a very bizarre experience. What hit you first? What hit you first that you were not expecting?
Portia
I was grateful I got time to self surrender because it could have gone differently, and I really needed the time to say goodbye. So before I even went to prison everything changed. The world came to a standstill, and nothing mattered but the moments I had left with my children. I’m grateful for that because not everybody gets it. I appreciated every simple thing with my children before I went. Then at the end of 8 weeks my husband drove me to Dublin, California, to self-surrender for a seven year federal prison sentence.
Kate
What a hard drive. Oh gosh. I can’t imagine.
Portia
It was hard to say goodbye to Chad, but the hardest part was saying goodbye to my kids. My youngest little girl was seven at the time. My mom came over to watch the kids so Chad could take me and said, “I can’t watch it!” You know, she just took the kids and drove away. She couldn’t watch me say goodbye, It was just so hard. Then when I got to prison and felt so lonely. There’s this thing about prison. It can be really hard to be open with your feelings. My heart hurt so bad that I thought I would explode, but I didn’t talk about it. I woke up that first day and everybody was wearing khaki. There were about a thousand women on the compound I was at, and there was no color. It all looked the same. It was overwhelming, and depressing. I remember thinking: “I don’t even know how I’m gonna make it a week, let alone seven years?”
Kate
You wouldn’t know. I mean, who do you talk to? You didn’t know what prison life was like, you don’t know what you’re up against. You hear stories, or you see movies, and you assume a couple of things; but It was probably totally different. When we come back I want to hear what that first month was like, then I want to hear how you got through it, and what you learned about yourself. We’re visiting with Portia Louder. She spent time in federal prison on a white collar charge, and she is sharing some of her experiences with us. I followed her for a long time, reading through her wonderfully written posts about her experiences. I was inspired by her, and really wanted her to come on the show. I’m grateful you’re on today Portia. Welcome back. What was the first bit of time as you walked into federal prison like? You had seven years ahead of you, but what hit you first during this experience?
Portia
Well, the first two weeks were devastating. I was really overwhelmed, and felt so much sorrow. I kept thinking “I can’t do this, there’s no way I can do this!” But after about two weeks, I started telling myself that I needed to get it together, and I slowly ventured out. They put you in A&O when you first get to prison to acclimate until you find a room. I had a roommate in A&O(orientation)and she kept telling me that it wasn’t good that I was so depressed. She told me I needed to get up and do something, and I just told her to leave me alone and go away. I don’t think I wrapped my arms around the fact that I was going to be doing as much time as I did. You always hope in prison that the law will change, or something will happen. That’s how the majority of us get through our time, especially at first. I had an attorney then that was working on my case, but once you’re locked up you’re pretty much buried in prison. You asked me if people could be put in prison for being a Patriot? Sure you could. Once you get involved in the criminal justice system, or once you get involved with the government you realize it’s different than you think. Any one could get locked up. People in prison aren’t any different than everyone else is.
For example, I spent a year in Dublin, California, and was put in the Shu, which is the special housing unit because of my blog.
Kate
So did they look at that like a good thing or a bad thing? A bad thing. They don’t like people writing about what happens in prison.
Portia
They kept me there for about a month, which they can do just to investigate. They never did find that I had done anything wrong, but they chose to do what’s called an administrative ship. They shipped me to Waseca, which is in Minnesota. It was further away from my family, but It ended up being a good thing for me. While I was there I spent a lot of time meditating and really found myself. It was a good prison. Just know that once you get involved with the justice system a lot of things happen that don’t make sense.
Kate
It’s probably very political. They want you to take a step this way or that way. They probably want you to do certain things and do it their way. So you can’t step out of that at all I’m sure.
Portia
I guess some of the things that surprised me were that there’s so many people locked up for years and years, and a lot of them are just poor. I mean, they’re poor! it’s a melting pot in prison. A lot of Hispanic, and black folks, and everything in between. I did the first four years at a higher security institution, and the last part of my sentence at a camp. I met so many amazing people and I’m grateful that I did my time the way I did; but you can get caught up on the injustice of it really easy.
Kate
Yeah. I’m sure you can
Portia
Once I quit focusing on the things I thought were unfair, and started focusing on myself, things changed. I had the time, and decided I wanted to do something with it. I started reading a lot, and listening to people’s stories. I began working through my own things, and made a decision to take full ownership of my life. Now I recognize the empowerment that came by owning the choices I made. I was able to rewrite my story, and decided I wanted to do something with my future. Instead of thinking about what I thought the government had done wrong, I started thinking about what I could do right with my life
Kate
Did you see a lot of people mistreated? Because we hear a lot of horror stories. I’ve talked with people from prison and there’s a lot of horror stories there. I can’t imagine seeing that. Did you see that? Did you encounter that?
Portia
Not really. Prison isn’t too bad. There’s a lot of great officers in prison, and a few bad ones. Men’s prisons are a little different, and County jail is a mess. I had my face slammed into a wall and my clothes taken from me in a County jail. They pretty much do what they want when they’re in a county jail. It’s not a place you want to be, and you better just shut up and let them do what they’re going to do.
Kate
Geez.
Portia
It’s not a good place. In my experience a lot of the staff that work in a county jail probably need to get some help. They probably need a little bit of training, or they should not be in that job.
I met a lot of good staff in prison. There’s always those that aren’t, and again female institutions and male institutions aren’t the same. Prison is just different than everyone thinks. There’s such a sisterhood there, we all help each other out, and you get to know people in such a unique way. it’s just not like the things you see on TV. I met so many amazing people. It isn’t us versus them, we’re all the same.
Kate
Right. And what about gangs? What about, you know, are there certain groups you wanted to get in with and, or stay away from
Portia
It’s so funny that you say that, because I was such good friends with everybody. I mean, I had one girl that was pretty imposing who told me: “Louder, I got your back any time.” I told her: “Listen, I really don’t need that.” She had done 20 years, and that’s how she did her time. People just do a lot of time in Federal prison.
Kate
And that’s her way of confirming your friendship is I got your back. Right.
Portia
Yup, and she was true to her word. But I didn’t feel like I needed anyone to clear my way.
Kate
We all need friends like that out here. I can’t even imagine! So what were some of the things that surprised you? The food, the loss of freedom? I mean, how much time did you get out every day?
Portia
You operate on moves in FCI’s. The thing about prison is that you want to find a job right away that works for you. I found a job that was meaningful for me, the money wasn’t important to me. I worked down by the rec yard so I could go outside whenever I wanted. You find what works for you. I worked in education when I first got to prison, and taught people how not to focus on what the government was saying and focus on themselves.
Kate
It probably helped you to teach that so that you could do it too. Like you’re doing it, and then you’re teaching it at the same time. It probably made it more impactful.
Portia
Right? I went in there feeling sorry for myself, but at a certain point I came to realize how fortunate I was. It was like, “I have a family that supports me, that loves me. I have so many things that many of these women don’t have, and for generations they haven’t had. You know they’re trying to learn, and they’re trying to make changes, and we just don’t really understand that kind of a struggle. I didn’t.
Kate
Yeah. So you wrote about this the other day, you wrote a story about a gal that was just born into the worst circumstance, had everything happened to her, and she was trying to pull herself out of that. I’ll bet that was incredible to watch. Because you’re right, we live in a suburb or whatever, and you’re just not around that. You just don’t encounter it.
Portia
Yeah. You have no idea. I mean, I had no idea. And so, you know, a lot of white people that go in for white collar think I’m not a criminal, they’re the criminals, we’re not criminals.
Kate
I see sure, sure.
Portia
Then you start to realize maybe I’m worse because I made the decisions I made with a good upbringing, with a good understanding of what’s right and wrong, and with a supportive community. I still made the decision to break the law. I’m here because I deserve to be here, and a lot of these women never had that kind of upbringing, and they’re trying to change, and they have very little resources. At that point I started thinking what can I do? How can I be of service?
Kate
Yeah. What an introspection, Holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. You’re right. I mean,
Portia
And I learned a lot from the women there. I really did. I found strength in new ways. I mean, I just learned so much, and felt truly honored in many cases to be friends with the women that I met in prison.
Kate
Go ahead. No, I want you to go ahead. Go ahead.
Portia
Well, I feel like I was so blessed, you know, I was so blessed to have this experience and meet people from all different cultures, and all the different experiences. Blessed that I was able to take that kind of time and focus on myself, to read and to study, to meditate, to pray, to really come to know myself and make changes, you know, what a gift that was.
Kate
Yeah. And what a powerful gift to be able to say that while you’re there in it, because I see, you know, to mean that because if you’re going to mean that, say it mean it, my gosh, I mean, you had to have a complete, you know, a one 80, I mean, it had to be a total change.
Portia
It was
Kate
Welcome back Portia Louder. So happy that you’re on with me because what a story. And you said something that was so striking, while we were just chatting. You said how much more free you feel now than before you went to prison, you feel more free now? We were talking about how I can’t imagine not having an ounce of freedom, having everything just gone. What was that like?
Portia
I think people confuse freedom and Liberty,
Kate
Yes.
Portia
Liberty in this country is cherished and valued. It’s important, but a lot of people put themselves in prison, me included before I went to prison. So, you know, finding that freedom within yourself is where it’s at.
Kate
How do you do that?
Portia
It was a process for me. I had an experience when I had been in prison about two years while I was in a process group. A young woman came in who I could see had that light about her. I really wanted to get to know her, but she was just quiet doing her own thing. Then she tried to kill herself. It was traumatic, but those things happen in prison just like they happen out here. She got some psychiatric help, and then she came back. One day she stood up in our process group and read a list of everything that she had done wrong to hurt somebody else and took full responsibility for it. So this might sound completely backwards, but there was so much power in that room when she did it. We were all in awe, and afterward the counselor asked her what would make her care enough about her future that she was willing to stand there and own her stuff.
The woman said, “Because I’ve tried everything else but being honest, and if I’m not honest I’m going to die. I had to try it!” Wow. And at that point I realized I have got to own my mistakes, and take full responsibility for my life. Every single decision that I’ve made, you know, I’ve got to figure it out. I’m here because of me, because the way I responded to things, because of the choices I made, because of the thoughts I have, and it has to change. For me it started with making a list, and it wasn’t a little one, it was a full on spreadsheet of everything that I had done wrong, and owning it. I felt like that changed it for me. That freed me. Now, that sounds backwards because you try so hard to avoid the mistakes and not look back, but the truth is, there’s power in owning it. When you say: “I did this, I know I did it, and it was wrong.” You know, it’s hard! I let my family know, “Hey, look, it’s not the government. It’s me. I made these choices. I responded the way I did, I had the freedom to decide, and I chose what I did.” By doing that, I had the freedom to change everything. And that really was it for me. I freed myself by owning my choices.
Kate
Yeah. That would be a freeing moment, and boy everyone’s list is so long. And I wonder if people really, really grasp that everyone’s list is long. There’s not any person on the planet that’s got a three liner. So we’re all looking at major lists of things, right. Everybody.
Portia
Yeah. But it’s freedom. It is. I mean, what I know is that the last thing I want to do is be a victim. I do not want to be a victim to the government, and I do not want to be a victim to anyone else. I have the freedom to decide how I respond to everything in my life. And that was something I didn’t understand. I thought, “Well, that person did this, and they got away with it. Or that person did that, and it wasn’t fair.” No, I chose how to respond to my life, and until I owned that I didn’t have the strength and power in my life to make the changes that I wanted to make. It really changed things for me.
Kate
What about your relationship with God?
Portia
People of all different religions say that God walks the halls of prisons, and He does! I mean, I miss it. I miss it, and I would go back if they would let me. I don’t know if I would spend the night, but I might.
Kate
Wow. That’s a lot to say, yeah.
Portia
I sat under a tree and I prayed, and I mean I prayed! I’m a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, and I was the only member of the church on that particular compound. I had roommates that were Catholic and Christian and Muslim, and we just prayed together. I had someone ask me what the church did to help me, and I said, “Oh my gosh, we were all sisters. There was no difference.”
Kate
You’re that religion, and I’m this religion wasn’t a thing?
Portia
It wasn’t there, all of that disappeared. We were all family. I learned how valuable the women that I spent time with were to our father in heaven, and because of that, I know how valuable I am. I prayed in a way that I hadn’t ever prayed before. I suffered in a way that I had never suffered before; but I found a relationship that is so precious to me.
Kate
Oh my gosh, you didn’t make me cry. Okay. Go ahead and go. You know, we hear a lot about recidivism in prison and, you know, I can see by your case, it’s not something that would happen. But did you find that there, that a lot of this wasn’t really sincere from other inmates? Were they just biding their time?
Portia
Well, there’s people that think it’s cool to be in prison. They’re doing their time, there’s that for sure. Some people’s parents have been imprisoned, and a lot of them are poor. That’s just the life they’ve lived. Mostly there were just amazing women in there. People don’t know their stories, that they came from nothing and worked hard. They have factory jobs in prison, you can work full time sewing and make a hundred bucks a month. A lot of women pay for their own phone calls and everything else. There were so many women that were way stronger, and way more amazing than I could ever be. They truly blessed my life, and their stories aren’t told enough.
Kate
Yeah, I can’t even imagine. So you had this moment with this girl admitting her mistakes, and then you admitted yours. So from then on it was a totally different experience?
Portia
Yes, I sat down with my family, and I told my kids that it wasn’t the government’s fault. My daughter was like, “Mom, I can’t do this, it’s too hard!” I told her, “Don’t be angry at anyone but me. I made these decisions. I am the one that hurt you.” It was hard, but from that point on I found my power. I had enough strength in myself to start setting goals, and looking forward to life again. I was very determined not to leave prison a victim. I wasn’t going to leave feeling sorry for myself, but I got tested with that a few times.
Kate
Things happened that were unfair?
Portia
Yes, but I was not going to give power to the problem. I made a decision to focus on myself, and the beauty of the experience.
Kate
Such resiliency just had to be a constant choice all the time. Yeah.
Portia
Yeah, it is. There was a time at the end that tested me. I mean, let’s not underscore that I have an amazing husband.
Kate
Sure.
Portia
My husband was amazing, but by the end he was pretty worn out.
Kate
I bet, I can only imagine that’s a long time, and you’re trying to keep a family together.
Portia
I did four and a half years because I did every program I could, and they gave me some good time. I got some time in a halfway house too, so my BOP time was about five years. My sentence was seven, and I did almost 5. It was a chunk of time.
Kate
Right? I can only imagine! There’s always things we wonder, like how prevalent the gangs are? And can you study anything you want? Can you get a hold of anything you want? Were you able to do that to study or read?
Portia
Well, you can read books. I read and read and read! You can study and read, and most of the teaching is amongst ourselves. We help each other out, but there’s not an amazing prison program. You can’t get a college degree. A lot of people think you go to prison and get a college degree. No, it’s not like that. You really are going back to about the seventies as far as any type of technology. You’ve got very little, but you know what? That was great too, because I literally had four t-shirts, a pair of sweats and a pair of shorts, and I felt totally free. I was happy. I didn’t need all the crap we have. We have way too much stuff out here
Kate
Yeah. Yeah, we do. That’s so true. And you talked about serving others, you know isn’t that always the prescription. I always feel like it’s a prescription for happiness when you start to get out of yourself. You finally came to terms with being there and then was it service from there? Isn’t that what kind of tipped the scales for you to be happy. Was that it?
Portia
Yes, and it was also allowing myself to be served. The women there did a lot for me.
Kate
Oh yeah.
Portia
I was able to serve, but I also opened my heart, and as I served others, I came to love them. People were so respectful of me. I mean, really so kind and good to me. I had neighbors that were just amazing. It’s Just not what people think the whole prison experience is. Many of the women that are in prison are being more cared for in prison than they have been throughout their lives. Life has been pretty hard for a lot of them.
Kate
Is that because of the sisterhood? interesting, I remember reading a blog post, or a post from you about having to try to understand how to be served. Cause sometimes we just don’t think in those terms, but it gives other people those blessings to serve you, you know what I mean? And, and I think that’s a really powerful lesson.
Portia
I had one girl go to the kitchen every morning and bring me an Apple. She had nothing! She had no money, but she knew I loved apples.
Kate
Oh, wow. Well, I appreciate you doing this Portia, because I think there’s so much we can learn from this experience that you had. You know, we always try to have our experiences and save our kids from all the things we don’t want them to do because you know, I’ve done this and I’ve had this experience and I wish we could share more about these types of experiences so we could understand them a little bit better. And I appreciate you being that, that honest about it and saying, you know, owning it, being honest about it and coming on and even wanting to talk about it.
Portia
Well, I appreciate the opportunity, you’re doing good work out there.
Kate
Well, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. We have about a minute and a half Is there anything else you’d like people to know about this experience?
Portia
I think I would just say that any experience has the seed of opportunity within it, whatever it is that you’re struggling with. I would never want my children to go to prison, and I wouldn’t want my neighbors to go, but if you are going to go, if you made choices to get there, figure out how to make it, the best experience it can be. That goes for depression or whatever it is that your struggle is, we all have the power within us to make it an amazing ending.
Kate
That’s so true. And even if you found yourself in a situation where you were put in there for nothing, I mean, there are people that are there that are innocent. Even if you were put in there innocent, can you even imagine, and then, and then on top of that, trying to find what you just talked about, find that level of happiness so you could get through it so that you could just, you could endure it well because there’s enduring and then there’s enduring. Well, sounds like you endured it. Well,
Portia
I was just really blessed. I didn’t do much, but I was just super blessed.
Kate
Well, I can, I can only imagine how many times you got on your knees for that. I can only imagine what a powerful, what a powerful thing that was in your life and in your family’s life. I mean, you’ve had this amazing experience and like you said, you feel more free now than you ever have in your life.
Portia
I do. Yeah, I do. I pretty much love people, but I’m not too worried about what anyone thinks anymore. So that’s pretty freeing in and of itself
Kate
Do you know what that is? Gold. That is gold because we live our lives really worried about that is not the truth. Right? Portia Louder. Thank you so much for doing this was a great hour. Really appreciate you. Thank you.
